It’s International Women’s Day!

To celebrate we have interviews and discussion with 4 brilliant women. Read ahead to find out more!

I reached out on twitter for a couple of contributors for an International Women’s Day post for one or two questions to complement a recommendations post. I was lucky to have no shortage of takers, and I opted for 4 instead of 2 in the end! I posed 8 potential questions and made a suggestion of choosing 1 or 2 to discuss. Discussing women’s experiences in the reading (and specifically SFF) community isn’t something that can be consigned to a couple of sentences however, and everybody rightly had a lot to say!

Therefore, I couldn’t say no. We now have 2 posts to commemorate International Women’s Day today! Read on for some really insightful, thought provoking and important discussions from the fantastic women who’ve kindly given their time up to contribute to this post. Thanks so much! I’ll go ahead and start straight off with the questions…

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First up, we have Ella @wonderouspages!

What are your feelings on introducing trigger warnings in books and/or reviews? Women are subject to abuses that a high proportion of men will never experience – with a trend for Grimdark elements in fantasy being popular, do you think more women would read fantasy novels in particular if these trigger warnings became commonplace? Do you think it’s important to push for trigger warnings in books generally?

I’m all for introducing trigger warnings! Not too long ago I talked to a writer searching for ARC reviewers for her dark fantasy novel. I asked her to elaborate on the trigger warnings, because all she had written in her initial post was to be aware of trigger warnings and mature content. I got a snappy response that she didn’t want to spoil her story, so I told her I couldn’t review her book – even though the concept sounded great, I’m not about to risk that the story gets too “dark” for me to enjoy. If she had given me more details I could’ve made an informed decision to read it, but I’m not about to walk blindly into something that could potentially trigger a panic attack AND feel like I’m obligated to review the experience afterwards. I’m sure I’m not the only one who turns down books for these reasons and that more women would feel comfortable to read (adult) fantasy if they could check the trigger warnings before committing to the book.
Personally, I think it’d be great if all reviewers warned for common triggers in their reviews (think graphic violence, rape, suicide etc.). Then there are reviewers who specialize in giving more in-depth trigger warnings for those who need/want them. It would make stories more accessible and those people who don’t need or want warnings could simply choose to skip reading them. An author ambushing their readers with triggering content will only lose fans for pulling a stunt like that. Honestly, an author can only win by adding trigger warnings.
I actually think books shouldn’t just come with trigger warnings, but that they should have more labels/tags on them (think tropes and the like) for people to find the books they know they’ll love. There are so many good stories out there and we waste a lot of time reading stuff we’re not all that into just because we haven’t found more of the books that hit all the right spots. But that’s a whole different conversation.

Do you notice any differences in the way men and women authors write female characters?

Yes! And this obviously isn’t just an SFF problem. Sometimes men describe their female characters in the most ridiculous ways, not to mention needlessly sexually. Having read some awfully written chapters from a female character’s PoV, I wonder if some men regard women as a type of alien (or maybe a sentient pair of boobs?). Another problem I’ve run into is the lack of female characters in stories written by men (statistically men write more about men and less about women, women write equally much about men and women, so no one writes a lot about women). Not only male characters can have interesting stories or be important to the story arc. The fantasy worlds don’t have to banish all women into the kitchens and laundry rooms. And if the author wants to run with strict gender roles and norms, I think they’d be smart to show the exceptions and protests, because those are fundamental when writing realistic humans – we tend to seek to express our authentic selves which rarely fully coincides with what’s expected of us. Another noteworthy thing about female characters is that not all of them have to be strong in the masculine sense to be considered interesting. This is a trap both writing women and men fall into, but women are more likely to show the strength in femininity. (And while we’re at it – a feminine man can be cool too!) Women are more likely to write female characters as individuals while men have an easier time to slap the “all women are much the same” label on their female characters. But of course, “not all men” do this!

Do you get the vibe that SFF still feels like a (white) man’s world, or would you say it feels more inclusive and open now? If not, what can readers do to help improve the situation?

I’d say SFF still is predominantly a white man’s world, but that it has opened up a lot recently? I have a hard time commenting on the timeline because I’m only in my early twenties myself, but my guess is that with SFF in general becoming more mainstream, more people have wanted in on the fun. When I go to book fairs I don’t approach the stands manned by other SFF fans because the books they have on display don’t interest me (which I can tell by the scantily-clad women stuck in compromising positions on the book covers). The people who do mill around (and behind) the tables all fit into the “SFF nerd” stereotype, in other words, they’re young-ish white men. You’ll never catch me as much as prodding one of those books they’re there to promote, not even with a ten foot pole.

To further open SFF as a genre, marginalized readers and writers need to be included. Make noise for the books you love written by women (and other marginalized authors!), just like you would if you loved a book written by a man. Engage with women and other marginalized readers and read their reviews to get recommendations for books you might not otherwise cross paths with. And to those whom it may concern: self-reflect a little over those books with the scantily-clad women seconds away from being raped by alien tentacle monsters on the covers and maybe make less noise for those.
Statistically, women who write under a penname that looks like a man’s or otherwise makes it unclear what their gender is (JK Rowling as a famous example) tend to sell better than women who are open about their gender. The difference isn’t as big today as it was in the past, of course, but still. If you don’t like some woman’s book, don’t be sexist and say things like “women can’t write good SFF”. I know some people (read: sexists with anti-minority values) “worry” that soon even uttering the words “white abled cis man with Christian and/or western values” will have them stoned, hung and burned, in that order, and use it as a reason to resist letting “new people” in, but I can assure you, that’s not about to happen. In fact, by supporting marginalized writers the quality of SFF literature and literature as a whole will rise. With more competition around, everyone will be spurred to do better to make sure their books get picked up. And so, (hopefully) no more badly written stories written by white men that only got published because of their privilege in the first place.

Thanks for your great answers, I can really feel the passion coming through in your words! I’ve read some awesome stories from women and POC authors and it makes me sad if people feel marginalised or not ‘part of the club’ – I know it sounds idealistic but I would just love more African inspired stories, other men noticing that women know us MUCH better than many of us think and understand what it means to be a man – I’ve felt this much clearer from women authors a lot of the time. I wish for a community that is completely friendly and open to all where we all celebrate each other and one another’s culture!

When you say you wouldn’t approach a SFF stand with a white guy stood behind – is this from your experience of those sorts of sexist and backward type stories, would your opinion change if people did better? If you noticed 2 black females (non sexualised) on the cover for example, would you be intrigued to head over and ask about the story?

Thank you! This is one of the topics we revisit and discuss over and over again in lit class and I have stats to back me up, though they’re just in my memory right now! I consider myself an “all reader”, but SFF is my to go genre when I read for fun.

And I completely agree! SFF as a genre is one of the safest places to explore heavy topics about culture, otherness etc. and if it was more open to people with different backgrounds I think it would be a gold mine for learning about cultures in a safe space and without it being all like “oh I’m reading this because I want to be woke”, but more “I read it because it’s fun!” I’m sure we can get there and will get there, but it’s a slow process…

And yes! I would approach if people did better!

I once almost went over to the stand with the books, but turned around when I got closer to all the covers and realized what kind of books they had on display. I consider myself to have dodged a bullet there, hah, because whatever conversation we would’ve had, it probably would’ve ruined my day at the fair. And also, made me wildly uncomfortable!

That’s understandable! I can see why you wouldn’t want to be put in that position. Personally I agree with you around how we can help with diversity in retweeting, reading, reviewing. I feel that even interacting and retweeting women in the blogging community helps the overall feeling of inclusion. I’d never retweet something I didn’t enjoy or find interesting, but I read a post the other day about how men are more likely to retweet other men and found that pretty shocking. Perhaps they are not following the right women because especially with blogging about the genre I love, it’s the women on this platform who have been most helpful, kind and passionate about the books more often!

Yes! I’m very happy you see it that way! I feel like many men become defensive so quickly. Saying “support women!” doesn’t mean NOT to support men! Not every book has to be about everyone and for everyone. Being more inclusive is easily seen as a threat, for some reason. I guess it’s partly because it’s not always spelled out. Saying “support black women!!!” or the like is taken as an aggression even though most people who speak for this don’t mean “stop supporting white women/black men/etc.”. I’m sure it’s easy to feel that way if you don’t notice the lack of diversity yourself

Nailed it! I think that’s a hurdle that men need to overcome and realise that feminism isn’t trying to to make them any worse off, they just want women to have the same opportunities. If you agree as a man, then you’re a feminist too! There’s probably a lot of guys who do have an effect just by not doing anything. We need everyone to help by making women’s voices heard.

Yeah! And it’s really frustrating to try to explain to some men how they too benefit. Like with the feminine men thing! Tall, dark and broody mysterious male characters can be fun, but there’s no shame to be a less macho man too. Having diverse characters for people to look up to is important!

Thankyou Ella for such a great contribution to the discussion!

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We now have Angela @Litscialliance!

Do you notice any differences in the way men and women authors write female characters?

Of course! Male gaze and female gaze differences can be seen in every media and books are no exception. I don’t have well-formed opinions on how I feel about these two gazes existing, I think they serve different purposes in storytelling and its only on extreme ends that I feel they can be truly harmful. One major difference is in how female characters are described. When I am reading about female characters by female or non-binary authors, I find there is more of a focus on their personality in their descriptions, similar to how most men are depicted in fantasy. If the shape of the body is mentioned it is normally done in a non-sexual way. I rarely see sexual descriptions of characters without a purpose behind it and quite honestly, I rarely known anything about their breasts or butt when I am reading female characters by female authors. Some male authors (not all) have this tendency to sexualize the description of women to varying degrees. I know how tight their clothing is, I know what their cleavage is, and normally these insights are coming from a male character’s perspective but sometimes these perspectives occasionally come from a woman in reference to herself. This later point I always find weird because as a woman, on average I am not thinking about my body in a sexual way. Like right now I am sitting at a desk typing and I have not thought about my body whatsoever. I find that male authors have become better at giving their female characters complex and developed motivations similar to their male characters but occasionally they will put in only a token female character and there will be no other female characters of importance in the book. One of my favorite fantasy authors is guilty of this on occasion and has even recognized this in interviews and in his more recent works has had to make himself more aware of including female characters. So yes, I notice differences and I am sure if this question were turned on its head to be about how men and women authors write male characters there would be compelling differences there as well although maybe not as obvious.

Do you feel women have any particular disadvantages or hurdles to overcome in the SFF publishing industry?

Huge caveat that I do not have any experience in publishing books, I am a consumer of books, not an author. I have always noticed, even in bookstores today, that female authors are more likely to be published in YA fantasy than adult fantasy and if they are publishing in adult fantasy, they use only their initials. I am thinking of specifically V.E. Schwab, N.K. Jemisin, and S.A. Chakraborty. In contrast I do not see this happening at the same level with male adult fantasy authors I read. Considering I can notice this as a consumer I am led to believe that publishing has similar barriers comparable to other work forces where you have to work harder to prove your work is going to sell or maybe imply your name is not female to get books to sell. I will be honest and say before looking at the author page I use to think all the authors above were men because I have been brain washed to on reflex to believe an author of a fantasy book is a white male until other evidence is provided. If I have this archaic brain reflex in 2020 I cannot imagine what other barriers exist for publishing books for women in the industry.

Thanks for much Angela for your thoughtful and insightful answers!

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Next to step up is one of my newest followers, Lily (Lily on Twitter) !

Do you think there is more or less of a social stigma attached to being passionate about science fiction and fantasy as a woman? How do men or older relatives react to your hobby?

First of all I think there is a stigma about reading fantasy in general. Most people, especially adults with a university degree, don’t acknowledge fantasy as a noteworthy literary genre.
It’s not something you publicly admit to your colleagues for example. I teach English and German at a German “Gymnasium” (comparable to US high school or British A-level schools). With my one year 6 (students aged around 11-12) I read Rick Riordan’s “Percy Jackson” to combine literature class with knowledge about Greek and Roman mythology. The students really enjoyed reading that book and some boys told me afterwards that they ordered the other volumes of that series because they enjoyed the first one so much. I was really happy about that and told my one German colleague. She mildly smiled at me and told me that that is not what school should aim for as that book doesnt have enough value for a literature class reading. Because it’s not “highclass” enough (I am missing the right english words here). So in general fantasy literature is mostly not taken seriously enough. Except if it’s written by a woman to question emancipation like “The handmaidstale” by Margret Atwood which is basically fantasy or scifi too but somehow you’ll not find that book in that section. (It is a great book by the way)
If you’re male it surely is forgiven more easily and you’re simply the lovable nerd.
But I see the problem with this more on a total scale than a gender divided scale. Fantasy is slowly moving out of it but it still is kind of in the trashy corner.
Same goes for role plays like D&D, which are being played more by females too now though. So in my opinion fantasy is on the right move.

I definitely share your frustrations; we would perhaps call that snobbery here in the UK, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the word? Fantasy is often looked on as this quirky little thing on the side of reading ‘proper’ books. Interestingly though, The Hobbit is sometimes looked at through these academic lenses, or it was when I was at school.

Oh snobbery is a good word. Yes, I think “The Lord of the Rings” and “The Hobbit” are the exception of the rule. I’d say that is because Tolkien was a university professor and invented the eleven language. So if a Cambridge or was it Oxford (?) professor writes it it is more classy 🙂

Yes that could certainly be the case. It’s a shame because fantasy books will get children’s imaginations developing more than studying a dull tome…

Yes and it might even get them reading more which should also be an aim for teachers to achieve.

Do you get the vibe that SFF still feels like a (white) man’s world, or would you say it feels more inclusive and open now? If not, what can readers do to help improve the situation?

That is most definitely a yes to white and tbh to male too.
First of all to white:
I think there are more people writing fantasy now who are not white like for example Evan Winter. I’ve not read his book “The Rage of Dragons” yet but I’ve heard it’s an African inspired book.
Tbh I think there are more non-white writers but not many of them are really famous.
Also there are more and more women writing fantasy. Also non white women like: R.F.Kuang, who wrote “The Poppy War” and “Dragon Republic” which are set in an Asian world.
And more women like Saaba Tahir who is of Arabic origin I think.
But here is the gender dilemma. There are women writing fantasy books but those are basically also mostly young adult fiction. With YA-fantasy you have many women writing books like Leigh Bardugo, Maggy Stiefvater, Cassandra Clare, VE Schwab. And not to forget Sarah J Mass. Bardugo and Mass now have adult fantasy books available. I read books of all of those authors and I enjoyed them a lot. But as they’re fantasy as well as YA fiction they’re taken even less serious than their male colleagues who write “only” adult fantasy novels. So the only female author I have read so far who writes adult fantasy is R.F.Kuang. Oh and “The Nightcircus” by Erin Morgenstern.
So I think it’s harder for women to get into “adult” fantasy. Which might have to do with their female protagonists as well. Most of their main characters are females in their teens or early twenties.
I know that Jay Kristoff’s book “Nevernight” is also placed in the YA section of libraries and book stores too because his heroine is a young girl. So I think that makes it harder for women to get taken seriously. First fantasy isn’t taken seriously and secondly because they have young heroines.

What are your thoughts on book covers within the SFF genre; do you find they are designed with a specific target audience at all?

In my opinion fantasy book covers are still mainly designed for a male audience. Often those covers seem to be very masculine. One example is “The Raven’s Shadow” series my Anthony Ryan. Also other books I really enjoyed reading have that same kind of martial-masculine cover art, which is nothing bad but they dont really speak to me as a woman.

This is getting better though as there are more and more beautiful covers coming. One example of that would be Justin Travis Call’s “Master of Sorrows” which looks really pretty and is in my opinion very gender neutral.

More often I still think the covers are either more male or more female and it often depends on the protagonist of the book. If the main character is female the book cover looks more female too, which I don’t agree with.

What are your feelings on introducing trigger warnings in books and/or reviews? Women are subject to abuses that a high proportion of men will never experience – with a trend for Grimdark elements in fantasy being popular, do you think more women would read fantasy novels in particular if these trigger warnings became commonplace? Do you think it’s important to push for trigger warnings in books generally?

I think many women expect abuse to happen when it comes to grim dark. I was very positively surprised by Peter McLean’s “Priest of Bones” in that context. Because in the beginning of the book there was a rape scene going to happen but then the main character stepped in and prevented it. Which surprised me in a very positive way. Later on there was prostitution but never abuse or rape committed by the main character. He even punished those who did that. I thought that was a very positive feature in that series.

Yeah, I loved Priest of Bones! Tomas Peity is a bit of a grey character himself but stops things like that happening and that’s something I really liked too.

Thanks to Lily for really in depth insights here!

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Last but not least, we have my friend, Kriti @armedwithabook! She has a fantastic blog she puts a lot of effort and thought into over at Armedwithabook.com that you should definitely check out.

Do you notice any differences in the way men and women authors write female characters?

Alex, these are fantastic questions and as much as I would like to say that I notice female/male character arcs or authors gender for that matter – I haven’t until recently. With being more active on social media and the movement around identity, whether it is LGBTQ+ or diverse cultures and representations, I have started to notice these things. In those regards, my answers might be a little bit disappointing. I have never considered myself a feminist, even though I work in Computing Science (a male dominated field) and could be a role model for girls to go into computing. I personally think women should do whatever they want to do, not because society wants more women in certain fields.

Coming back to books and the science fiction and fantasy genre and looking back at all the books I have loved, I think men and women are equally capable of writing strong and amazing women characters. Sword of truth by Terry Goodkind is one of my favorite series and it is full of powerful women characters, whether it is Kahlan, the Mother Confessor, or the Mord Sith that are protectors of Lord Rahl. There is no women character in that series that does not have a terrifying past, but they have all taken that into their strides. Anne Dolheri’s Anbatar was another amazing book with a fierce female character. Take any book by Melissa Meyer and you will find real women in her stories, where it is Cinder in the Lunar Chronicles or Nova in the Renegades series.

Based on the books I have read, the main difference that comes to mind is the chances of a female author writing a female protagonist are more than a male author writing a female protagonist. As much as Kahlan is a protagonist, Richard is the center of Sword of Truth series as the Seeker. That isn’t to say that female authors do not have male protagonists. They do. Renegades series has Adrian but I would still say Nova is the main character.

What are your feelings on introducing trigger warnings in books and/or reviews? Women are subject to abuses that a high proportion of men will never experience – with a trend for Grimdark elements in fantasy being popular, do you think more women would read fantasy novels in particular if these trigger warnings became commonplace? Do you think it’s important to push for trigger warnings in books generally

In the last couple weeks, I have thought a lot about trigger warnings and actively listened to my peers who need those trigger warnings. That’s how I ended up writing about them. You are correct that women are on the receiving end of a number of the abuses, though I do think that the abuses that men experience are just not talked about enough. Biases exist in that realm as well. Trigger warnings should be an integral part of books. Between all the people who read the book before it gets published, I think it would be safe to say that all major triggers would be identified. Even though I can’t identify every single trigger, I know of some major issues that I would not ignore to add to my reviews. I actually ask my authors now who send me review requests to mention triggers up front. If something in the book is going to make me uncomfortable, it might have much worse effects on someone else. Some sort of warning is always better than no warning at all.

This is another one of those topics that we don’t talk about enough in our community and then it ends up being the book blogger or reviewer’s job to identify what they can. Publishers and authors need to take a lead on this because it is their book and honestly, it helps them get more sales because armed with the knowledge of what’s in the book, people might give it a shot! I know because I have talked to people who use trigger warnings this way. We have to combat the perception that knowing something always leads to people being dissuaded from pursuing it.

I think trigger warnings would lead to more readers reading books. Period. Fantasy or Science Fiction, or any genre.

Why do you think a much higher proportion of men traditionally sit in the Science Fiction and Fantasy bestseller lists? Women are just as adept as men at writing stories; what other factors might be at play?

I was telling you about Invisible Women: Data bias in a world designed for men, right? I was blown away by the preface and introduction of this book when the author was talking about pronouns and the many times that ‘he’ is used in a genderless context. I know at least two women who go by pen names and just by looking at those pen names, I won’t be able to tell you if they are male or female. We all know about why J.K.Rowling did not publish under her full name and that she still continues to write under ‘Robert Galbraith’ which is clearly a man’s name.

Invisible Women exposed me to this bias that I had. I pick books based on the blurb and the cover. The name of the author doesn’t play a role but am I surprised when authors with initials turn out to be women? Often. The fact that women carefully choose the name that they publish under is HUGE. I am not an author so I don’t know first-hand what goes on behind the publishing scenes but there must be a big reason why women think so much about the name they will write under! Are the editors male? Is it hard to find agents? I do not know. Traditional publishing has advantages of exposure over indie publishing so there are lots of decisions that need to be made and will play a role in how that book gets published.

While Science Fiction and Fantasy bestseller lists featuring men would have been a thing at least a decade ago, taking a quick look at the Penguin Random House list for example has a number of women authors that I can identify and some names that I won’t know are male or female. As we become more aware about gender gaps and biases, we have to find a way to show that things are changing, or not changing for that matter. I would love to see a study (we can totally do this as book bloggers so let me know if you want to) where we see the changes in the best seller lists.

Another thing to note though is that every bestseller list is very much biased by the company that produces it. Why would publishers show books of competing publishers? Same with Amazon – unless you make your book available there, you would never feature on the list at all. No matter what platform it is, everyone has to play by their rules. And women authors play by the rules, changing their names sometimes to have a better shot at these bestselling lists. It is a reality that we have to work to change.

Invisible Women sounds like an intriguing book; could you tell us a little bit more about it?

Sure! Like I said I work in computing science – I’m a data analyst. I work with data and the fact that this book looks at the data we have is what piqued my interest. The author, Caroline, has put together an in depth look at all different walks of life and how they are designed, often not considering women at all. From public hygiene, urban planning, pension plans, academia, agricultural equipment to phone sizes, places and things are usually designed without much consideration to women. The book is based on data from multiple sources and talks about what happens when women are not considered when making major decisions. For example, I work 8-4 for my job. It’s pretty flexible and I’ve no complaints. However, schools in Canada usually start around 8, which means when I have a child, I will likely have to adjust my working hours or find home care before and after school. My partner currently leaves for work at 7 so he won’t be able to help. When I was growing up in India, school started at 7 am while offices opened at 9 am. So my mom still had time to take care of me and herself in the morning. After school care is altogether a different story. There is so much that women do that we do t think about because we are used it being this way. I love how much thought has gone into this book to expose the pitfalls of this.

That sounds really in depth and something that could enlighten a lot of people!

Thanks to Kriti for being as eloquent as always and taking the time out of her busy blogging schedule to contribute to this post!

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This sadly ends the discussion today, I hope you enjoyed the post! I feel especially after today that trigger warnings are something we should discuss further as a community as the topic is obviously important. If you are interested, I have posted the 8 questions posed below, if you’d like to have your own discussion, or join in here on the comment section (or on twitter @blogspells)! Again, thanks so much to the 4 amazing women who gave up their time to help with this post, it’s really appreciated. Please follow them on twitter!

This is post 1 of 2 in celebration of International Women’s Day 2020. There is a recommendations/commemoration post coming soon. Thanks as always for reading.

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List of the questions I posed for today’s post:

1. What are your thoughts on book covers within the SFF genre; do you find they are designed with a specific target audience at all?
2. Do you notice any differences in the way men and women authors write female characters?
3. Do you feel women have any particular disadvantages or hurdles to overcome in the SFF publishing industry?
4. What are your feelings on introducing trigger warnings in books and/or reviews? Women are subject to abuses that a high proportion of men will never experience – with a trend for Grimdark elements in fantasy being popular, do you think more women would read fantasy novels in particular if these trigger warnings became commonplace? Do you think it’s important to push for trigger warnings in books generally?
5. As a woman, what frustrates you most about the genre in general?
6. Do you think there is more or less of a social stigma attached to being passionate about science fiction and fantasy as a woman? How do men or older relatives react to your hobby?.
7. Do you get the vibe that SFF still feels like a (white) man’s world, or would you say it feels more inclusive and open now? If not, what can readers do to help improve the situation?
8. Why do you think a much higher proportion of men traditionally sit in the Science Fiction and Fantasy bestseller lists? Women are just as adept as men at writing stories; what other factors might be at play?

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